The Catholic Church has approximately over 200,000 parishes(with probably over 500,000 individual buildings within those parishes) around the world. If it had to pay property taxes, the world's largest charity organization would cease to exist along with other churches across the globe.

No matter what the topic of conversation, or what website it runs on, the illegal Mexicans are dragged into it and are to blame for all the ills of these United States. Priceless.

Steve,
what to you mean by a new 'home'?

A big AMEN to that PBC. The best damn preaching I ever heard was under the Banyan Tree in Maui. Didn't cost a dime.

Actually if the Catholics got the property the ashes would have to be moved. There are no burials ony ashes, so it's an easy move. The screwed thing is they paid damn good money to be interned there.

Mr. Kamath,
You are not informed. The Catholic Church is on top of child abuse with paratrooper boots! It is and has been a horrific tragedy and major embarassment to the church. There was an international survey within the last two years where it was ascertained 4.6 in 1000 Catholic priests were guilty of child molestation. The survey also indicated 4.3 pastors per thounsand of other combined religions were guilty of child molestation. This in no way is justification for Catholic priests. Catholic Bashing is easy. Being a Catholic is not always easy. The church rules are strict but, thank God, have loosened up to some degree in regard to divorce and contraception. Take a look at your own life and why you engage in Catholic Bashing. The San Francisco Solano Church in RSM constantly provides food and assistance to needy people.
May God bless you!

Hi Larry, thanks for joining the conversation!

Have you discovered the 'source' of your Catholic Bashing, Shripathi? I can see where the word count could come into play here... If it makes Mr. McCook feel better I can proudly say that I don't restrict my 'Bashing' to Catholics...

Larry, IMO Shriapthi was not bashing, only stating facts. The church (or members/clergy/high ups of the church) have attempted to cover up sexual abuse. There is no denying that. Parishioners may not like to hear it, but it is a fact.

I will agree, Christian bashing is easy, and uncalled for, and i don't like it anymore then you do, but its hard to escape this sad chapter in the Catholic Churches history.

With regards to the purchase of this "Cathedral". Ask your self this...what would Jesus think of it. My bet is he would be appalled.

JMO

I disagree with your corrections, Larry. They simply ignore facts. Please educate yourself what is going on in Ireland, for example

http://tinyurl.com/3p5zjwj

The fact that people responsible to directly convey the word of God are molesting *only* 46 kids is about as bad molesting 43 as those other heathens are should convince you to re-evaluate your position and why you are actually arguing for it!

"This in no way is justification for Catholic priests"
Then why did you even mention it?

I have levied one charge above, your diversions on divorce and contraception can be discussed, but *after* I make those charges.

"Take a look at your own life and why you engage in Catholic Bashing."
I examine my life continually. Why I engage in Catholic Bashing should be obvious. They committed horrific crimes of sexual abuse of little children, tried to cover it up, and continue to engage in the practice of obstructing justice. In other words, someone has to, clearly people like you are too busy defending them.

"The San Francisco Solano Church in RSM constantly provides food and assistance to needy people."

As do millions of Catholics and others. Like Hamas and Hezbollah. They help orphans and widows of religious strife in the Middle East. So do we ignore that they have been deemed as terrorist organizations?

"May God bless you!"

May you be better educated.

More.

Here's something specific on Herr Ratzinger who had continually denied any involvement in the cover-ups:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8612457.stm

He did appoint a council to investigate and address this most serious matter, didn't he? Well, here's what happened to one on that council:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2072613,00.html?xid=rss-world

Ask yourself this. Pretend that this was not a Catholic organization that had so much history of child-abuse and cover-up. Pretend that it was some national day care center chain.

Do you think "Compared to other day care centers, we have only 46 cases of child rape, way lower than the average at Brand X where there are 75.." would have even been made?

Do you think such an organization would even be in existence today? Would its principals not be in prison?

Or would "But the CEO gave $75,000 to a neglected children child center in Arkansas, and another $50,000 to a battered women's shelter in Montana" even have been presented?

And yet, despite all this, when Herr Ratzinger arrives to the US, he will be given a state reception by Obama, at taxpayer expense.

Just so that you feel better, here is a recent story on sexual predators in the priesthood, no, not Catholic. Not even Christian: http://tinyurl.com/3polzzo

Yup, those are abominable too. Just in case you were wondering.

The question is not why I indulge in 'Catholic bashing' over this, the question is why are you not?

Shripathi - At the risk of invoking your wrath, I think you have misstated the facts. According to Mr McCook 46 of 1000 PRIESTS were guilty of child molestation. You are assuming that they were monogamists...

Your question of: "why I am not bashing the Catholic Church?" has a very direct and simple answer. My God is all forgiving. Obviously you are not!
All of the other issues that you have mentioned were previously addressed and I stand by my statements. Child molestation is deplorable. The church has learned a lesson about shuffling errant priests around in hopes for a correction in their behavior. When you look at the percentage involved opposed to the current good provided around the world, the Catholic Church will survive. Any wayward priests will be and have been punished and removed when discovered.
I question what religion in your opinion is any better?

@Daniel I am not using his stats. The numbers are illustrative. I could have used 25 and 20, for example. Not in proportion, perhaps.

@McCook
'"why I am not bashing the Catholic Church?" has a very direct and simple answer. My God is all forgiving.'

Convenient that you know that your God forgives child rape. Perhaps he also forgives defending it against people citing facts.

"Obviously you are not! "
I am disgusted by priests claiming to represent this "all forgiving God" raping little children, and other people who protect them and defend such actions. Obviously you are not as enraged as me.

"All of the other issues that you have mentioned were previously addressed and I stand by my statements."

Which only convicts you of doubling down on wilful ignorance.

"Any wayward priests will be and have been punished and removed when discovered."

Which still misses the point. It'd be better for the Church to be proactive, and minimize the possibility of child rape. Not simply remove (or move) wayward ones, only when they have been caught. But to weed them out before they even rape. Not "when discovered".

Had you clicked on the links you'd have found that the priest heading this effort has been arrested. For pedophilia!

"I question what religion in your opinion is any better?"
My opinion on the matter is not something you cared for earlier, so why do you repeat the dishonest pretense?

Oh my goodness Mr. McCook! Did you really say that? "What religion is in your opinion is any better?" Because others look objectively at the atrocities of a minority of Catholic priests, you feel it is now appropriate to start comparing your faith with that of others? On what high and might horse did you ride in on? Do you not see, after all your years, that one's faith is of a PERSONAL nature and to try to "compare" one's faith to that of another is highly offensive? Are Lutherans, Mormons, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. to be compared as a whole to Catholics because of good deeds provided by members of these faiths? What of the members who have failed to live up to the tenets of their faith? Shall we COMPARE a pedophile Catholic priest with an extremist Muslim? Shall we compare the Crusades with the Mountain Meadow Massacre? The Inquisition to the religous "education" provided to the Indian tribes in North America? How would you do that?
Really, I am rather surprised. Mr. Kamath's comments are not "Catholic bashing" in any manner whatsoever. He has merely illuminated some very unfortunate facts that have surfaced over the years. No doubt such attrocities occur among many faiths as we are all human, but to accuse Mr. Kamath of being ill informed and "bashing" the Catholic church is way out of line. You say to Mr. Kamath, "My God is all forgiving. Obviously you are not!" I hope you are wrong, and that Mr. Kamath is forgiving, for you owe him a big apology.

@Shripathi - Maybe I don't understand... McCook used 4.6% of 1000. You used 46. Coincidence?
@McCook - Easy to see why religions are always killing each other... Of course, yours is the only TRUE faith... The rest are misguided, absurd or out and out evil.
'My God is all forgiving'..? That reminds me of what I just heard a congressmen say regarding the debt ceiling - 'We are willing to negotiate but only within the parameters that we have set forth'. Eternal damnation is not all forgiving...

Daniel: "Maybe I don't understand... McCook used 4.6% of 1000. You used 46. coincidence?"

No, I call it irrelevance.

The point is that saying "X rapes by Catholic priests is not too bad considering others perform almost X rapes" is what I point out as disgusting. I could have used 509 and 500, or 91 and 87, or... 46 and 43.

@owen, the only people we owe an apology to are the victims, and the soon would-be victims because we have not put sufficient pressure on the authorities to hold the people who commit these crimes, or the ones who hide them or move them, and the ones who trivialize or defend their actions as being above reproach accountable. We have failed them. Other than repeating that raping a child is wrong, and noting the continued disregard to the serious problem from The Church's management whenever appropriate. If McCook owes anyone an apology, it is to those victims. If the one heading the team on combating pedophilia is arrested for pedophilia, surely that should decent Catholics pause that perhaps Ratzinger's efforts are seriously flawed. Imagine if a corrupt police department is heading an internal investigation, and the lead investigator is busted for cocaine possession and bribery, but the chief and its supporters say that "well that was in the past, and that PD over in that town has had five bribery charges, and we had six, so we are doing OK"

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples saying, 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments; And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues; And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi! Rabbi!!

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in Heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."

~Peace & Love to All~

BLAH BLAH BLAH. How about all the horrid terrible things the church does. The Church is far more distructive than it is good. War, molestation, greed, robbery, lies, corruption. And the post below is just crazy. I long for the day when all the hocus pocus is behind us.

FOOLISHNESS how about feeding the hungry? Taking care of emotionally and physically wounded soldiers? Housing the homeless? Providing clean drinking water? Counseling the mentally ill?
A CD? A DVD? You must first own a CD player or a DVD.

Good point Lindsey.

One in the same.

boogety boogety

Think of how much the poorest of the poor could benefit if not for the material costs of gold and marble. And I don't think that all that has gone on in Churches is purely sacred; certainly evident from large sums of litigation costs. I have to admit that sort of blind faith really scares me, but I have respect for those who are so devout. Whatever gets you through I suppose.

@Cat V,

This is really a matter for a private business that is The Church and its shareholders, anyway. They are bidding monies their faithful have given them to use with as they please. If they want a cathedral, great!

When you say "I have to admit that sort of blind faith really scares me", is there any sort of blind faith that does not scare you? Faith, by definition, is blind.

Laur En has faith that when a priest mutters something over a gluten-free wafer, it turns into the flesh and blood of a 2000 year old Jewish man long gone. Not much different than millions of others who have faith that the same man turned water into wine, walked unaided on water, and was born of a virgin.

When you say "I have respect for those who are so devout" the 9/11 suicide bombers were very devout. They truly believed.

"Think of how much the poorest of the poor could benefit if not for the material costs of gold and marble."

I suspect a lot. Just like the cost for the material for large buildings of many mega-churches (without gold or marble), or the gaudy lighting could save enough money to feed the hungry.

But isn't that for the shareholders to decide? Besides, whatever happened to bootstrapping yourselves?

The same place he changed water into wine, walked on water, raised Lazarus from the dead, delivered his sermon on the mount, wandered into the desert being tempted by devil, cured the blind, lepers, cast the evil spirits out of humans into pigs, cursed and killed a fig tree for not bearing fruit during the off-season, spit into a blind man's eyes--twice--to cure him of his blindness, fed some 5000 people with five loaves and two fish, called for the separation of God and Caesar, etc.

This isn't about Jesus. This is about private business, The Church seeking to grab a great buying opportunity in a down-market for building a cathedral. An extravagantly lavish piece of architecture sanctioned by Herr Ratzinger and/or his minions.

I'm guessing....no.

Hmmm, I'm not really sure, Daniel. But if you want to keep the conversation going, reply to the first comment the other "replier" posted on.

Consider it a compromise between woefully insufficient flat views and easily convoluted tree views. I think Patch did OK there. It'd help if they eliminated the 1500 character (actually some 16-20 characters less than that) limit, because quoting someone else in a reply-to-a-reply uses up precious real-estate.

How come you don't use the reply button as often as you should, Daniel?

Thank you Peter - I guess that's the solution.

How often should I use the reply button Shripathi? BTW you look younger than I would have guessed...

:-)

As often as you should reply but start a new thread instead.

I am only old in dog years

"It appears that you have read words into what I did not put in print. "
Well, it appears that you are wrong to assume what I read.

"I have not commented on whether it is a good idea to purchase the Crystal Cathedral. I do not know!"

I have.

"May God bless you and show you how to forgive those who have done wrong."
May you be educated so that you can distinguish fact from fiction, and feel for the victims of the priesthood you so dearly protect.

Yes Mr. McCook, but since you bring up that red herring of 'freedom of religion' and play the persecution card (daily double?), I'll remind you that said freedom does not give you the freedom of raping little children, denying it, shielding the pedophiles, moving them around, deny shielding them, continuing business as usual, appointing a pedophile to eliminate pedophile priests.. (well the last one, you technically have it).

Demanding to name "a better religion" is another red herring, since I already answered that you do not define better by fewer child rapes. Nor is it my job to pick which of all the superstitions should be the one to phone in on the idle American Idol phone lines. Dial 1 for Zoroastrianism, Dial 2 for Yezidi...

But here is a group, I do not know whether it is a religion, but surely they have a better code regarding this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo

and here's their code:
13. "Do not allow other hobos to molest children, expose all molesters to authorities, they are the worst garbage to infest any society."

See, even the hobos know that it is wrong to rape little children, and they need to be handed over to the authorities.

Maybe if The Church understood that hobos exists, they could learn. Maybe they should make it Eleven commandments and add that one. Clearly some priests and the CEO do not seem to understand that. Just because it is not a commandment, does not make it OK to rape kids.

@Daniel, you're too kind.

"I do disagree with your inability to forgive and your inability to realize that hopefully these horrific actions are a thing of the past."

Yes, repeating that you disagree with reality, and accusing me of something that is not mine to forgive makes you just as wrong as you were the first time. You'd be better off doing something to stop the stalling in The Church and help getting the guilty to justice.

Otherwise you look like you just want to blame me because your priests rape little children, and then either cover it up or obstruct.

"God is love and he loves everyone including you."
Yabba dabba doo!

"The small percentage of priests (4.6 per 1000) acted outside of church law and rules as well as God's Law"

Ah, you did quote that number earlier to justify the priests' actions, even when you said you didn't. Listen to yourself. You're arguing that priests who are supposed to represent God raping children is not so bad, because "only a few did it".

I also note that you leave out everything but "church law" and "God's law". Sneaky way of admitting that they broke the country's laws.

Rest assured, this will be my last response to you on this topic. When you put something on the collection plate the next time, know that part of it is going towards protecting and hide pedophiles in the church and convince yourself that it is not so bad. I'll do my part to expose more apologists and denialists for child rape cover-ups in The Church.

He is a pedophile sympathizer, apologist or both. His explanation to blame it on those who want justice for the victims of pastoral rape, cover-up, and obstruction.

Forgiveness and prayers for 'both' sinners and for people who have caused harm. Aren't those one in the same? Maybe you could have included a thought for the victims and the generations that will follow behind them. Repentance could be thought to be an action and would be appropriate here. I think most of the wrath you are feeling Larry, is that the Catholic Church is not held accountable compared to other individuals and entities. In their political stance as well as their crimes. Simply said, people would calm down if we heard more about what is being done for the victims rather than forgiving the 'few' (how do we know?) priests.

I think the point is that crimes were committed and there was a collective effort in the church to evade, hide, ignore and deflect.

Whether you believe in God or that he is all forgiving is completely irrelevant in this matter. Offenders should have been kicked out of the church and any all assistance should have been given to law enforcement.

You and your parishioners can drop to your knees and pray all the live long day for their sins...while they sit in prison.

@Julie

"I think the point is that crimes were committed and there was a collective effort in the church to evade, hide, ignore and deflect."

No. If that were entirely accurate, then most people would make peace with The Church, and go on. They have with Germany, for instance, and they arguably did far worse.

Perhaps you meant to say:

"I think the point is that crimes were committed and there was ***and continues to be*** a collective effort in the church to evade, hide, ignore and deflect."

If you or anyone else were to revisit the specific links I cited, it would show why it is a mistake to ignore the emphasis I provide above. Please, go ahead.

Do it a second time, if you must.

You see, when you want to rid The Church of its sordid problem of priest abuse, but the person heading the efforts is arrested on charges of pedophilia, and obstructing, you are not even making the effort.

"It is the least I can do" is what you hear people say often, which of course, when you think about it, is absurd, because what it says is that if you could do less, you'd. The Catholic Church is living up to that maxim. Falling a tad short, even.

As long The Church and its minions focus on suppressing the continual unearthing, and not cooperating with the law, we owe it to the victims to keep speaking out about it.

If that means dragging in people willing to condone pedophilia cover-ups and obstruction, heaping the blame on those pointing it out, GREAT!

Well, yes they continue to do so. Which is why I added the link below.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/27/philadelphia-catholic-archdiocese-abuse_n_910764.html